A Conversation with Gandhi as Editor
In Hind Swaraj, Gandhi’s critique of Western civilization was framed as a conversation between a reader (us) and the editor (Gandhi). What would the editor have said today of modern civilization, given the rapid unraveling of the web of life we are seeing around us?
Reader: When I last spoke with you in 1908, you had warned me of the dangers of imitating Western civilization. In 1938, you had stood by every idea in your booklet of warnings. I am now meeting you 80 years after that last discussion. Is there anything you would change about Hind Swaraj?
Editor: No, and I hope you will pardon me when I say, “I told you so.” The world and India are far, far worse today than over a century ago, because of problems that the world was not aware of then. But the core reasons for the problems remain the same, just as I described them in Hind Swaraj.
Reader: What are some of these core reasons? The Great Depression of the 1930s, and the recessions every decade or so subsequently, have proven you right. Why does this happen repeatedly in modern civilization, according to your view of swaraj?
Editor: In all civilizations, we have had periods where people have found it difficult to find work, such as during famines or wars. But modern civilization has made it happen more often and more deeply. There is nothing worse for swaraj when the very foundations of survival are taken away from a human being. However, people are wrong when they think I am opposed to modern civilization. It is really some basic assumptions that I am opposed to, especially when they are taken to the extreme.
Reader: Can you give me some examples of these basic assumptions?
Editor: Modern civilization places an undue emphasis on machinery, rather than increasing the dignity of human labor and its widespread availability. Aside from constantly trying to replace human labor, which throws people out of work, the capitalism that is at the heart of modern civilization tends to concentrate power in the hands of a few people, the capitalists. While I don’t agree with his solution, I agree with Marx that capitalism is rigged in favor of the capitalists who control the machinery, making them wealthier over time relative to labor.
Reader: You may take some comfort from knowing that many economists today like Thomas Piketty show that over time, the rate of growth of returns on capital are more than the rate of growth of returns on labor.
Editor: Marx would say that the poor would get restless until they overthrow the capitalists and restore equity in the system. But such class conflicts inevitably tend to become violent and do not solve the real problem. Solving it at its heart and not just at the surface is the goal of real swaraj, the swaraj that I have always wanted for India and the world.
Reader: Could you tell me more about this real problem at the root of modern civilization? And why is it at the heart of real swaraj?
Editor: Well, to understand what the real problem is, you need to first understand what civilization really means. To me, “it is that mode of conduct which points out to man the path of duty.” For me, performing duties means being moral, and “to observe morality is to attain mastery over our mind and our passions. So doing, we know ourselves.” In the end, real civilization promotes self-restraint and self-knowledge.
Reader: You’re saying that modern civilization does none of these things.
Editor: Yes. A false civilization is that which promotes self-indulgence, through which we move further away from self-knowledge. This is the simple message of our ancient wisdom and the reason why I have always insisted on self-purification in my followers and myself before we launched our satyagraha movements. This self-purification also includes banishing any hatred of others, especially of the ones whose opinions and decisions you are trying to change. Nonviolence (ahimsa) is indeed the root of self-restraint and success in fulfilling our duties.
Reader: What is wrong if modern civilization promotes self-indulgence and rights, rather than self-restraint and duties?
Editor: The material goods of capitalism have now become necessities for everyone. At the heart of capitalism is self-interest. The core belief of capitalism is that a collection of people working together with individual self-interest will find the right solution for humanity and the world. But this is counter to everything I have seen and known. It is counter to the wisdom traditions of ancient India and of the ancient world. It is not self-interest that we should worship, but self-restraint.